Tuesday, January 13 2009

Coding Horror is an entertaining, sometimes even educational blog. Be careful diving in headfirst, though, as the technical depth is generally so shallow you'll be hitting the bottom before you've even broken through the surface tension.

It's always a danger — in the nerdly get-some-unkind-emails way — to question it. It has quite an army of loyal fans who, I presume, have had their ego carefully stroked over the years into loyal defensiveness ("Yes you are a top notch programmer! Yes you are!"): Any prior time I've disagreed with Jeff on here has resulted in a flurry of emails that are the text equivalent of the infamous Chris Crocker video.

Yet Jeff's latest entry has me unable to contain myself.

In that post, Jeff opines that Windows 7 might just be worth a look because, he says, in the latest outing Microsoft has taken to changing the visible parts of the OS, instead of, I guess, just improving the underlying awesomeness. The example Jeff draws from is that the calculator has visually changed, whereas before it was just the underlying mechanics of calculation that saw awe-inspiring improvements, all while gaggles of ungrateful goons continued to hurl insults at Microsoft, unaware of the great gift they had been handed. That Microsoft has decided to enlighten us to the great improvements they've made by visually making change apparent, instead of just doing their magic in secret.

As a newsgroup troll might say, errrrr...wut?!?!?!

What planet has Jeff been living on? What spaceship did he just hop off of, interstellar cruise of the Outer Gamagia quadrant completed, that leads him to be so completely out of touch with reality?

Here on planet Earth, Vista was seen as largely being about changing the UI — much like XP before it — and many of the complaints were that the actual utility of the OS suffered (even basic operations like moving files seemed to have missed being QA'd, slowing to a paralyzing crawl under completely ordinary uses). Functionality got lost under layers of paint, and interfaces seemed to be changed for the sake of change.

To many, Vista was 99% visual changes and 1% detrimental functional changes. But at least it brought the unwashed masses a calc.exe that had shaded buttons and a translucent title bar!

Conversely, a lot of the excitement about Windows 7, relative to Vista, is that it fixes stuff "under the hood" (better, strong, faster.)

But I'm no Vista basher, and actually believe that much of the anti-Vista vitriol is undeserved and unfounded. While I was on the record saying that it would be a product failure because it was wrongly focused and had little that compelled people to desire it, I'm actually somewhat of a fan of the OS, insofar as the comparison is with XP. Vista even has some very cool features under the hood, such as TxF, though that's the sort of structural change that isn't really useful until applications start using it, but they won't use it until it is available in a good percentage of deployed PCs.

Back to Jeff's entry, the ridiculous example of the accessory calculator being an example of...anything...really strikes me as absurd, and it seems to be the sort of "try to draw some big observation from some small example" space filler you end up resorting to when you're trying to hit a schedule.

To add to the march of absurdity, Jeff links to a ridiculous post by the occasionally interesting Raymond Chen.

In Raymond's post we hear about how tough it is for poor Microsoft (sidenote: what's with the bizarre victim complex that many Microsoft employees develop?) You see, prior to Windows 2000 someone at Microsoft made the choice that when you use a calculator in Windows, you really want to enjoy IEEE floating point rounding errors in all of your results, because the people that developed calc.exe — which would literally be a 8 hour project for an intern..you don't even need to make an installer — decided to take the laziest route possible, implementing it in the most naive way available. Raymond goes on the defensive, telling us that those critics just don't understanding floating-point. Not really, Raymond. They just don't understand how Microsoft could have ever thought that it was a reasonable decision for a calculator app to use and suffer from, versus the decimal math of virtually every other calculator app.

So Microsoft swapped out the embarrassing calculation "engine" of calc.exe (Jeff got the timing of the change seriously wrong. It wasn't between XP and Vista. It was before Windows 2000), put in the bignum-style implementation that should have been there from day one, and people were supposed to send them flowers or something? You ungrateful sons of...

Anyways, Windows 7 will invariably make a big impact, so I do plan on taking a look at it soon. But I'm certainly not motivated because calc.exe got some minor changes.

   

Reader Comments

Well put Dennis. I also noticed many of the false statements (undoubtedly unintentional) in Jeff's articles and I would definitely agree that with your claim that the big change (and the thing people will notice) is underneath the surface.

I have been running windows 7 for a couple of days and have noticed considerable performance gains over Vista. There are still some issues here and there but it is still in beta as well. It looks and feels very similar to Vista but has the feeling of being a better engineered piece of software.
Paul Osborne @ 1/12/2009 9:02:05 PM
I don't know... Vista has a lot of visual inconsistencies which give users a bad impression from day one of using it. A coherent user experience is important, and UI is a part of it.

In so much, attention to detail is important. Vista was pushed out of the door, its underlying technical foundation was sound in my opinion.

I personally never disliked Vista and preferred its 64bit incarnation to XP. I guess a lot of the small grudges however put people off, so to deliver a streamlined experience is probably what users wanted.
goto @ 1/13/2009 12:13:44 AM
I think you're being slightly harsh on Jeff here Dennis. I think what Jeff is trying to say (and I agree with him) is that the quality of the overall visual fit and finish is indicative of the quality of the product as a whole.

Aero is poorly considered, riddled with inconsistencies, and (like Luna before it) is an obvious reactionary move against the perceived modernity of OS X.

While Microsoft understand that general users think in visual terms, they always fall down because they consider UI in surface terms only, attempting to solve every problem with yet another blue gradient. They're not alone in this - see most Linux desktops - but its precisely the opposite of Apple's more holistic thinking where user /experience/ is paramount.

Architectural features are worth nothing if they're not exposed to the user through the medium of improved applications and experience. I consider the UI over UEX approach that Microsoft is pursuing as a dead end, but I suppose we can take comfort that we're going to get a better calculator out of it...
Derek Lawless @ 1/13/2009 1:51:21 AM
I have to agree. I've been following Coding Horror for a long time but it feels like the quality is going down the drain lately. So I asked myself why then I found this question on reddit meaning I am not the only one: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7oz8o/does_jeff_atwod_have_a_real_job_besides_blogging/
JohnIdol @ 1/13/2009 2:15:36 AM
Lol, welcome back!

During your hiatus, Jeff's posts have seriously took a downhill turn... A lot of them have turned into Spolsky-esque whiny rants - for obvious reasons I guess - so I expect more of this type of post from you... ;o)

I do think that we need to draw a distinction between visual changes that are just 'putting on a bit of slap' and those that are there because some underlying functionality has been adeed/changed.

As you say, Vista appeared to many to just be MS making the OS look pretty. As geeks however, we are well aware that there were a huge amount of changes underneath - some good, some hideous.

What you should do is take a Vista machine and throw the Windows Classic theme on it and then do the same in 7 - any differences that you can then see might be ones that are worth looking at?

P.S. Can I have a mailing address so that I can return my HD-DVD to you for a full refund??
Carl @ 1/13/2009 2:50:09 AM
You've come away with a different POV regarding what that post was about than I did.

My understanding was that he was trying to say something along the lines of "if you don't make a visible change to the UI, the user is unlikely to notice the change at all, and if they don't notice the change, it might as well have never happened."

I didn't think it was about Microsoft or Vista or Notepad or Calc at all - that was just an example illustrating the main point.

Do you think the main point of the article was wrong, or just the arguments getting us there?
Sammy Larbi @ 1/13/2009 4:31:50 AM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Jeff's posts seem disconnected at times. Sometimes he writes great stuff - other times I wrinkle my face and ask "what?"

At the same time, in this particular article you reference I agree with Sammy Larbi that the main point that was trying to be made is that if you don't make a visible UI change, then nobody is going to notice. I've personally experienced that issue and can relate.

However, as you said, Jeff's use of Windows 7 wasn't a good example to use to make his point. A personal or team's experience in building a feature that was never noticed would have been better, but these days Jeff's blog is more about having a post a day, so the crap comes with the cream.
Kevin @ 1/13/2009 5:10:38 AM
@Kevin

I think being a fulltime blogger makes your stuff less interesting by definition and the quality also goes down 'cause you're coming up with stuff just to hit a schedule (as Dennis points out in the post)
JohnIdol @ 1/13/2009 6:13:19 AM
These guys are more of fanboy idols than actual developers or systems people. so you'll have to excuse their ignorance when evaluating an OS by something like a calculator app.
sulfide @ 1/13/2009 6:50:32 AM
To be quite honest Jeff Atwood is what got me into the software development blogging arena. It was nice to go over his posts in the past but after he moved onto this stackoverflow venture there... just was nothing there. I lost my RSS feeds for whatever reason and I never re-added his stuff and totally forgot about him until I was linked here from reddit.

On topic of the calculator issue.. the question I am more concerned about rather than trivial UI bits is does it take more than a blink of an eye to be active onscreen? If that's the case I'll be swapping from doing my operating system cocaine lines off of panes of glass arrayed in a wooden frame to a small flightless bird or where the kool-aid is a lot stronger.
illfed @ 1/13/2009 7:20:59 AM
Lets see:

Windows vista needs roughly twice the memory and at least 50% more processor power to operate. And for that I get what? Aero? Bluray?

Pfft. Its the "intel giveth MS taketh away" squared.

No thanks.
DavidM @ 1/13/2009 11:05:57 AM
Frankly, Vista lacked a lot of visual polish. For example, some control panels used the new interface, while others used the old interface. There was little consistency.

Windows 7 will gain a lot of usability if its interface becomes more visually and functionally consistent.
Leo Petr @ 1/13/2009 12:54:36 PM
"interfaces seemed to be changed for the sake of change."

in notepad, up through XP, you could close and save by the key sequence ALT-F,Y. My fingers got used to that over many years.

try that in Vista and then explain why to me. just a minor irritation, one of several.

ps1: anyone would have a victim complex if there was a continual drumbeat decrying one's stupidity and incompetence.

ps2: what is 'bigum-style'?
dmh2000 @ 1/13/2009 4:22:06 PM
"the decimal math of virtually every other calculator app."

Are you sure virtually every other calculator app uses decimal?

Apple's calculator uses floating point. They even have a technital note explaining it http://support.apple.com/kb/TA22455

KDE's calculator didn't switch to an arbitrary precision library until 3.5.0.

Enlightenment's Equate uses floating point as far as I can tell.

Gnome uses an arbitrary-precision library.

So it looks pretty mixed.

If the bignum implementation should have been there from day one, a lot of calculators have been broken from day one.

I'm not disputing your other points; just saying that "it is absurd to write a calculator that uses IEEE floating point" is a rather strong statement not well-supported by existing calculator implementations.
Raymond @ 1/13/2009 10:45:35 PM
I love the whole "what planet is jeff from that he thinks this to be true" part. It reminded me of when jeff accused Joel of losing his marbles when he wrote his own language for fogbugz. Now they are best buds with stackoverflow
Matt @ 1/14/2009 9:45:13 PM
While I agree that the point of the post might've been a little lacking in depth, I do think the overall point wasn't horrible. The more attention that's brought to UI and the user experience, the better for everyone.

Just look at the debates his post has spawned, it's like the MS commercials, they didn't make much sense (I loved them though, and I knew what their plan was), but they served a very real purpose of putting MS on so many blogs and outlets it literally drove traffic to them, good or bad, it was still buzz and press.

I'm still a novice in the industry (see 3 years), and maybe that's why I think differently, but too many people are just looking for something to complain about.

I've used every OS extensively, I'm comfortable in any of them (including a mainframe), and switch between Vista and XP daily.

I find it to be like changing from a 10 speed to a mountain bike...the biggest issues and complaints I see aside from performance (Vista runs fast for me, even faster if I add a cache SD chip) is that, it's just not what they were used to.

Just like the poster above noted, he's irritated due to a shortcut key changing, let me tell you, I was a full fledged mac user during the transition from OSX10 - Leopard, a LOT of hotkeys and interface options moved and changed, you just have to adapt.

And the bottom line is, if you don't like an OS, use something else. There are plenty of choices out there, it's YOUR experience that matters anyway.
Mat @ 1/14/2009 10:18:37 PM
Indeed, Mirosoft, Windows and it's/their proponents have gone become a joke to anyone paying attention.
dude @ 1/15/2009 11:03:36 AM
File copy and move were a little slower than they should have been, but as pointed out by Mark Russinovich (http://blogs.technet.com/markrussinovich/archive/2008/02/04/2826167.aspx) a big part of the perceived difference is Vista tells the real story about percent done, XP told a mixed story.

JD
Jim @ 1/17/2009 3:29:03 AM

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About the Author
Dennis Forbes Dennis Forbes is a Toronto-based software architect. While focused primarily on the .NET and SQL Server worlds, Dennis frequently ventures outside of this comfort zone into game development and image processing. He has been published in several industry magazines, has been quoted in the Wall Street Journal and has been interviewed by NPR.

He is a vice president and lead software architect at an innovative New York City hedge fund back-office services firm.

Dennis has been working on solutions for the financial, telecommunications, and power generation markets for over 15 years.





 

Dennis Forbes